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#33 - Olena Kononenko

What links community gardens in Berlin with sustainable reconstruction in Ukraine?

Porträt von Olena Kononenko mit Mikrofon

AskDifferent #33 – Olena Kononenko left her native Ukraine to work in Berlin at Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin, where she is a fellow in the Einstein Foundation’s Academic Freedom Program. As an expert in economic and social geography, she is interested in how cities are reconstructed in the aftermath of disasters such as wars. In this episode of our podcast, she speaks about the power of urban gardening, her vision for postwar Ukraine, and why it is never too early to start rebuilding, even under the most challenging circumstances. A crisis, she believes, is always the best opportunity to start something new.

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Intro: Mariupol was almost totally destroyed, and then this city is currently rebuilding by Russia in their way. I believe that it is, anti-human way of war, from Russia, because they're trying to destroy everything and construct something which they think it's supposed to be. And it is the easiest way to discourage people to return to this city. AskDifferent, the podcast by the Einstein Foundation. 

Anton Stanislavski: My name is Anton Stanislavski. Welcome to the podcast. More than two years ago, Russia attacked Ukraine. The full-scale war didn't stop ever since. Its main front lines are in the East and in the Southeast, but there have been attacks in the whole country even in the capital of Kyiv. But although the bombs are still falling, although the fights are still going on, there are Ukrainians that already think of a time after the war. Ukrainians like Doctor Olena Kononenko, she's a doctor of economics. She was an associate professor at the Department of Economic and Social Geography at Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, and she is currently an Einstein Guest Researcher here in Berlin. Welcome, Dr. Kononenko. Nice to have you on the show.

Olena Kononenko: Thank you for having me. 

Stanislavski: Your topic of research is the reconstruction of cities after catastrophes like wars. But currently, you are in Berlin collecting data on urban gardening projects. How does this connect? How is this linked?

Kononenko: I personally, try to keep connections with my colleagues, friends, and relatives in Ukraine. And, actually, physically I am in Berlin, but partly in my mind, I'm still in Ukraine and in Kyiv. 

Stanislavski: I can imagine that. But still, like the topic of your research in Berlin is urban gardening projects. Am I right?

Kononenko: It's, actually, sustainable reconstruction of Ukrainian cities, and I use urban gardens as a lens to understand, how to do it in an absolutely new way, reconstruct cities. So, of course, it's so wide and complicated and comprehensive problem that, of course, I can't solve it by myself, but I can contribute, analyzing such interesting phenomena for me as urban gardens in Berlin. 

Stanislavski: Community gardens, they rely on people working together. After such a devastating war, like the one in your home country, do people even have the strength to commit themselves to such a communal task, or is it maybe even a source of strength?

Kononenko: It happened many times. During the second World War, people gathered and they set up gardens in many European cities. And when the war just started in 2022, Gardens of Victory was organized in Ukraine. It was like a project for cities on how to grow vegetables in case that it will be food insecurity in cities. So, it's nothing new, actually. But, I think in the time of climate crisis, it's more important than before.

Stanislavski: Let's try to put the war out of our minds for just a moment. Can you tell us a little bit about Ukrainian cities from your perspective, regardless of the war? As I said, what's typical? What are maybe problematic issues for you in Ukrainian cities? What's working well? Can you take us along a little bit?

Kononenko: Yes. For example, Ukrainian cities, they're really late with sustainable development. With such ordinary things like waste management, sustainable transport, energy efficiency, it has actually become a lot of problems with that. I just several days had interview with an activist of one urban garden in the center of Kyiv. It's a young girl, a young mom, who are for ten years organizing this project. She's supporting a garden, and she shared with me her difficulties with this project. And the biggest obstacle is that they do not communicate with local authorities at all. So they exist separately: urban gardening project and people who are doing everyday some work there, city council and other people who are supposed to support citizens in that they actually do nothing. 

Stanislavski: And are there some positive aspects to Ukrainian cities too, if you think of them? 

Kononenko: Again, people. Because they are quite optimistic, especially young people, a new generation. They're creative, open to new ideas. And this cultural and academic life in Ukraine is really flourishing. It maybe difficult to imagine, but it is how it is. So many festivals, I don't know, conferences, workshops is organizing nowadays. So I’m really optimistic because I know students, one student who is thinking about rebuilding Mariupol. Even me, I'm not sure when we could start this rebuilding. But he believes, and it gives me optimism. 

Stanislavski: I can imagine. Now you are Ukrainian, your family and friends in Ukraine, how do you experience this war currently? How is the situation for you? 

Kononenko: I get used to that situation, because in any conditions a human being can survive. I believe in that after the worst started. And, of course, these remote technologies, the Internet, mobile connection all the time, it really helps. So, I can call and ask my relatives if everything is okay and help somehow them. So, yeah, it's not easy, but you can get used to even that situation. 

Stanislavski: Today, we're talking about reconstruction of Ukrainian cities, but I guess we kind of need to start with talking about the destruction first. How much do you know about the extent of destruction of infrastructure? What's the situation like in in Ukrainian cities? You mentioned Mariupol. 

Kononenko: Mariupol was almost totally destroyed, and then this city is currently rebuilding by Russia in their way. I believe that it is antihuman way of war, from Russia, because they're trying to destroy everything and construct something which they think it's supposed to be. And it is the easiest way to discourage people to return to the city. 

Stanislavski: If it's reconstructed. 

Kononenko: If it’s reconstructed in their way. So, Ukrainians don't want return to this city. And, of course, Russia, I think they hope that this territory will be theirs, but I don't know how this war ends. 

Stanislavski: So, there's cities like Mariupol where the destruction is huge, obviously? 

Kononenko: Huge. Not only that. Actually, all cities, which are near frontline. 

Stanislavski: All those to the east, to the south. 

Kononenko: Yes. Bakhmut, Avdeyevka. Actually, when our army left these cities, it was no one local in the city. Absolutely empty. No one Ukrainian citizen. And, usually, no one building is untouched after that. So I don't know what will be the decision about these cities because it's the most difficult to decide if we do it from the very basis, from the very beginning. And we build absolutely new city, which is also, I think, an option. Or we try at least to leave something, because for the people it's important to have something stable in their life, something which they remember from their previous periods. And I think we need more discussion about that. Involve sociologists, involve, I don't know, psychologists, and even human geographers. 

Stanislavski: Where does this work even start? I mean, the priority for many people must be to set up, like, basic infrastructure, housing, energy supply, water supply. Where do you start in your thinking about this? 

Kononenko: There is a Ukraine recovery plan developed by our government. But you are right. This reconstruction of housing and infrastructure is ongoing. So when, for example, one building has been destroyed, then immediately this recovery activity starts. It's how it works, with residential building in Ukraine. That's what I know from my experience because I have relatives whose house was destroyed by missiles. 

Stanislavski: I wanted to ask about this anyways because although I imagine it must be really frustrating to accept that this war is far from being over. Right? Experts say it may well go on for years. But still, you think it's the right time to talk about reconstruction already? Why?

Kononenko: Usually, reconstruction after such war takes a lot of time. You know, in Berlin, this Berlin Schloss was finished several years ago after seventy years when the war finished. 

Stanislavski: Yeah. True. 

Kononenko: So I think it's never early to start, and we even do not have, like, a finish line when we can say that it is finished. Because I learned from this Berlin experience of reconstruction after the war that reconstruction is more about people than the physical objects. 

Stanislavski: We've mentioned that there's huge differences between cities in the East near the front lines, and cities in the West. What's the challenges if you think about reconstruction in cities like Kyiv that have been hit, of course, but that are intact? 

Kononenko: In the case of Kyiv, I think we should maybe not think about some radical transformations, but about some changes in organizing in the city management. Crisis is always a time when we could start something new. 

Stanislavski: Starting something new is a good starting point because you're stressing that the reconstruction needs to be sustainable. We've been talking about the urban gardening projects in Berlin or also in Ukraine. Is that what you have in mind, or what do you mean by sustainable in this context? 

Kononenko: We all know about the concept of sustainable development, when social system, economic system, and ecological system balance among themselves. So all sustainable development measures are supposed to have economic, ecological, or social effect. But it not always works for each project because sometimes we have a solution, which seems to be really ecological, but with almost no effect for society, or it is really expensive. It could be. I think it's time for solutions which could be at the same time ecologically, socially, and economically sustainable. So the effect should be win-win solution.

Stanislavski: What are the challenges if you think of sustainable reconstruction? 

Kononenko: First of all, reconstruction itself is a big challenge. Sustainable reconstruction or just reconstruction when we have something destroyed. Because it takes years, because we should collaborate, as I said before. So it will be successful if we work together. But if we talk about sustainable reconstruction, the challenge which we have now is that usually after the war citizens are not enough involved in that process. I think this social component is underestimated. It was underestimated after Balkan's war and reconstruction of such cities as Sarajevo, Kosovo, and other cities. And it would be not so good if we do this mistake again. So we should not only ask people, but somehow let them do something maybe on the really local level, and we should reconstruct, rebuild communities. Let's imagine if we rebuild housing, infrastructure, and then nobody returns. So cities is, first of all, people. And rebuilding a community means that we should let them some space for interaction, for doing something together, for some activities. So, community needs activity. We can't just, like, resettle people and say you are a community. They should start doing something together. For me, urban gardening is, like, ideal situation, but I'm not insist that it is, like, the only one solution for sure. So it could be different projects, different directions.

Stanislavski: And asking people, you mentioned, that is something that would really help obviously. Right? 

Kononenko: Yes. Yes. Yes. It is it is what actually we are talking about in Ukraine, that it should be one of the basic principles, but it is not something new for Ukrainian cities. Because this principle was in our legislation for years before the war. Usually, it's just a formality. 

Stanislavski: We're talking a lot, at least on the political sphere, about the West supplying enough or not enough weapons to Ukraine. In your opinion, are European countries, is Germany, doing enough to support Ukraine's effort for reconstructing?

Kononenko: A lot of projects are now in progress, and Ukrainian cities receive help from different sources, from the governments of European countries, directly from the other cities, and it's actually really good for the communities that they feel that reconstruction officially has not been started. But all this assistance and, of course, money, we already received for doing some, sometimes, basic things. Sometimes it is about reconstruction of schools, hospitals, for example, in the cities near Kyiv when we have a lot of destructions. 

Stanislavski: Let's try to end on an optimistic note. When you think of post-war Ukraine, what do you hope for? Do you have some image in your mind? Like, what could Ukraine achieve in the best-case scenario if the reconstruction were organized according to maybe the ideas you have in mind? 

Kononenko: I think it's the only way for me to be optimistic. And, of course, I see Ukrainian cities much more sustainable than we had before the war. I'm sure that it will be. It will happen. The final result could be really, really great. 

Stanislavski: Today, we were talking about the war in Ukraine, and we need to do that, in my opinion, as we as we need to be aware of what's happening. Nevertheless, for me, it was really good to talk to someone who looks beyond the war, someone who has ideas about how things can go on after the war is over. I really hope that this will soon be the case. Thank you very much, Olena Kononenko, for sharing your insights. 

Kononenko: Thank you, Anton. It was a pleasure to be with you. 

Stanislavski: And to all the listeners who are following us, thank you very much for listening. It helps a lot if you share our episodes. You can also follow the podcast to not miss future episodes. You're listening to AskDifferent, the podcast of the Einstein Foundation. My name is Anton Stanislavski. Bye bye. 

AskDifferent, the podcast by the Einstein Foundation.