Podcast

Inside a Baby’s Mind

AskDifferent, the podcast by the Einstein Foundation with Nancy Fischer. 

Nancy Fischer: This way of talking is one of the biggest myths in humankind. If there is a baby around, most of the people lose their serious attitude and start to speak baby language somehow. What we rarely ask in these situations: how does the baby like that? Is it amused? Is it bored? Is it distracted from something else? What do its looking patterns tell us about how it's thinking? This is, broadly spoken, our topic today. So welcome to this episode of AskDifferent, a podcast by the Einstein Foundation. 

ManyBabies, Jessica Kosie: One of the things that we do to be able to get insight into that is try to understand the things that babies look at. We typically will have babies, you know, sit in front of a screen in our ManyBabies5 study and show them different objects on the screen. And so, what we're really interested in is what kind of things capture their attention. 

ManyBabies, Martin Zettersten: It's also so invigorating to have researchers from around the world coming together because, you know, having those opportunities to discuss are so rich and illuminating about the questions that we care about, about how infants develop. 

Kosie: It's not just my project. It's not just Martin's project. It's not just the project of the other leads, but it's our project that we're designing together and that we're doing together. And so even though it might be, you know, stressful or tiring at times, I think it's worth it in the end. 

Fischer: Martin Zettersten and Jessica Kosie are my guests today, both postdoctoral researchers at Princeton University's baby lab. And together, they work on a project called ManyBabies. They want to find out which active role children play in the learning process and how they find structure in their environment if they learn a new language, for example. And I'm very much looking forward to the next 25 minutes with both of them. So welcome, Martin and Jessica, to this podcast. Good to have you. 

Zettersten: Thanks so much for having us. 

Kosie: Thanks so much for having us. 

Fischer: So what I ask myself in the first moment is babies cannot speak. They only look at you or they scream. So why is that such an interesting research object for you guys? 

Zettersten: So that kind of cuts straight to the heart of the idea behind ManyBabies5, the specific project that Jessica and I are co-leading, which is kind of how do we figure out what's going on in the minds of infants, given that we can't we can't ask them to tell us what they're thinking. And one of the main ways that researchers have figured out to tap into the infant mind is kind of in your in your question already, namely to use infants’ attention where they prefer to look, where they prefer to look to one location to another, that actually tells us a lot about what's going on in their minds, what their preferences are, what they're able to, what sort of differences they're able to pick up on. And that's the basic idea of a lot of what are known as looking-time methods in infant research. 

Fischer: So, let's imagine you are in a family researching on your topic with a baby, for example, and there is an older sibling asking, ‘What are you doing’? What would you reply to them? 

Kosie: I think I would explain, you know, from as Martin mentioned, are ManyBabies5 project that it's hard to know what babies are thinking and what things they prefer. And so one of the things that we do to be able to get insight into that is try to understand the things that babies look at. We use the things that they're looking at as an indication of what they're thinking and what they're interested in. And so we typically will have babies, you know, sit in front of a screen in our ManyBabies5 study and show them different objects on the screen. And so what we're really interested in is what kind of things capture their attention. That's how we typically test babies in a task like this. 

Fischer: Okay. So you investigate in your ongoing project the Hunter and Ames model of infant looking preference. How can you measure what they focus their attention on? You already mentioned video. So how does that exactly work? 

Zettersten: The basic idea behind the model is basically sketching out a few key dimensions that we think should really influence infants’ attention. And those three dimensions are infants’ age. So, as they get older, we expect that they should be able to process new information that they're encountering faster. The other is experience or familiarity with an object. So, the more familiar they are or become with some new object that they're experiencing the less interested they should be. And then the third dimension is the more complex the thing is that they're engaging with, the longer they should be willing to continue to kind of attend to inspect it, investigate it. Those are the sort of the three predictions from this model. 

Okay. So how do we test the model? Instead, what we do is we measure their attention how interested they are in a thing by tracking how long they're willing to look at these new objects. And here's the basic paradigm: Introduce some new, interesting object to babies on a screen in the case of our experience, or just show them a new stimulus and expose them to that stimulus. Give them some time to process it. And what we manipulate is how long that experience is that we give them with this new object, how long we allow them to kind of explore, watch that object. Then we now put up two objects on the screen. Okay, so exciting event, there's two new things now. One of them is that same object that they had just been watching, experiencing for the first time. And the other object is a brand-new object. And then the question is, how willing are they? How much are they now interested in this new thing relative to this now more familiar thing? Do they continue to look at the familiar object which tells us that they're still interested in kind of knowing more about that object? Or do they start to turn their attention more to this novel thing? 

And to connect that back to the Hunter names model: You know, the prediction is that as kids get older, they should be willing to switch to that novel thing, switch their attention, that novel thing more quickly. The longer we exposed infants to that initial familiar thing, the longer that time was, the quicker they should be and switch their attention to the new thing. And then for a more complex object, the more complex it is, the more intricate it is, the more there is to attend to for the baby, the longer they should actually be willing to keep their attention on that familiar thing relative to the novel thing in the test window. 

Fischer: Why is it important to research on that? So, what do we all learn from this? Maybe especially for parents? 

Kosie: I think one thing is this paradigm is used a lot across research, asking lots of different questions. So, you know, we framed it as kind of a visual question right now, but it has been used by researchers who are interested in things like how kids learn language, how kids sort of perceive the social world, how they learn about morality, how they learn mathematics, things like that, or early understanding of certain mathematical concepts. And so it's used a lot in a lot of different types of research. And so our question and our goal in the ManyBabies5 is to really kind of start to get at the foundation of this looking time method and see, as Martin mentioned, what kinds of things drive infants preference and infants looking so we can learn things about, you know, how the complexity of language matters or how the complexity of social interactions or social situations might impact infants’ processing and infants’ looking. It really is sort of this foundational research question that's been used to tell us a lot about a lot of different areas of research. 

Zettersten: In addition to this kind of stage setting for, you know, almost everything that we know about what goes on in infants’ minds, the questions that we can ask through the project itself are also kind of at the core of some of the basic things that we do as humans, right? Basically, it's helping us get at infants’ early curiosity, you know, the degree to which they're interested in something new versus something more familiar. That is also really an interesting question in its own right, I think. 

Fischer: Absolutely. And what I also found very impressive on this study is that it's huge. You work with researchers from all over the world. You work with more than 200 collaborators and 40 countries from New Zealand over Ruanda in Japan to Ecuador. So what do you learn from that part? I wondered, is there is a Japanese baby looking different at things than one from Senegal? Or what could you find out by now? 

Zettersten: The basic answer is that we don't know. We just don't know. Because the simple fact of the matter is that most research in psychology, but especially research on infants, the vast majority of that research has happened in a very constrained geographic space. It's happened mostly in North America. It's happened mostly in Western Europe. So, for this project, our prediction is that those basic curiosity mechanisms should work pretty similarly. But, you know, we need to know we need to actually test that question. And so that's what motivates this attempt to really bring labs from around the world together to try to ask this core question together and see, you know, if that if that model really is a very generally applicable model about the functioning and the development of the of the infant mind, or if we see any interesting, you know, cultural differences that might have something to do with different experiences that infants are having just to see, you know, what comes out of that test across many different cultures. 

Kosie: And I think not only the test, but the involvement of researchers from around the world in designing the study and in shaping, you know, what are the images that we show to infants to kind of make sure that they're not specific to one cultural group or, you know, there's not one culture group might press them differently than another cultural group. And so really, it's important to have researchers from the very beginning, from around the world, helping us design these questions and design these methods. 

Fischer: So maybe you can give us a little introduction and how you started all this, because I, I mean, I'm already stressed if I have to work with ten people in my company. But you have to work with like 40 countries, 200 people. How do you approach them? How are you writing? Like, I want to do something worldwide with my colleague and are you part of it or how did that work? 

Kosie: Yeah, practically to recruit labs, you know, we posted an email that we sent out to different listservs in different fields of developmental psychology asking you if folks would like to be involved. And we invited folks to sign up for the project. And then we've had many very large meetings about the project. So, we did an introductory meeting at the beginning where we introduced the project and just kind of shared our ideas about how we might approach this question, sending surveys out to the community, creating different sort of subgroups. So there's a group that was working on writing this registered report that we're submitting. There's a group working on our analysis plans, there's a group working on designing the exact stimuli to be used. And so it's taking this large group. But it is a challenge to keep all these moving parts moving. 

Fischer: I can imagine. I guess there are also some frustrating moments in between. But what did you in general learn from that international work for yourself as researchers? Is there already some? 

Zettersten: Oh, I feel like I've learned a ton from generally being involved in ManyBabies projects and other similar team science projects. You know, I think it's a great privilege to be able to be in the room with so much so many brilliant researchers, so much expertise. You know, I really value that tremendously. It highlights how much I don't know. It's also so invigorating to have researchers from around the world coming together because, you know, having those opportunities to discuss, are so rich and illuminating about the questions that we care about, about how infants develop, when you bring together all that expertise, but also expertise coming from different perspectives, it really helps highlight, sort of assumptions maybe that we make without even realizing it about how infants develop or how to use a particular method and things like that. So that's some of the kinds of things that I've really valued from these collaborations. 

Fischer: And the website of ManyBabies. You can read the principles of this project such as transparency, respect, ethical research. Also something like in the first moment I would say, of course, how could that not be the principles, but probably nothing which is self-evident in daily research. How do you see that also with the experience you had before, before joining this project, how important are those principles and how self-evident? 

Zettersten: Yeah, great. So basically to flesh out some of those principles a little bit more when it comes to ManyBabies, what transparency means in our case is really that, you know, all of the resources and materials that we create as part of the project planning of the data that comes out of the project to the degree to which it's possible to share that data. It's a little bit complicated with infant videos, for example, because that's inherently identifiable data, right? All the tools we create and also all the conversations, all the documentation around the sort of theoretical discussion that goes into the project - all of that is open from the very beginning. Basically, I can send you a link right now, and you'd have access to basically all of the notes, all of the materials, all the resources that have been generated. 

Fischer: I have already sneaked into it a little bit. 

Zettersten: Yeah, that's important. I think for a few different reasons. It makes the results easier for others to understand, to reproduce and to use in their own work. The way that I think we conceptualize it, is it's a community resource. It's built by the community. And we want it to be open and available to the community. So, we're fleshing out this transparency idea. I think maybe the other thing that I would add on to that, I think another sort of core value is that we also want the questions that we ask. You know, there's a ton of resources that are going to be invested into this project by the community. And so one thing we really, really care about as well is that the questions that we ask are the questions that are of most interest to this whole community of infant researchers. So that's why we invest a lot of time into discussing how exactly to implement the project, what questions to focus on, so that really it's going to be addressing the broad interests of the infant research community. 

Fischer: This sounds very good, very democratic and very exhausting at the same time to ask everybody it is if she's fine with the questions. Is it from time to time, Jessica, you smiling, too? 

Kosie: I mean, I think like with any large project like this, it can be challenging at times and it can be, you know, stressful at times. And it's important to us to make sure, as you mentioned, that everyone feels heard and everyone has a say in sort of constructing the research question and designing the study and provides feedback on versions of the paper. And so we try really hard to do that. And I think one thing that I worry about a little bit, I guess, is making sure that everyone does feel included. And as Martin was saying, it's not just my project, it's not just Martin's project, is not just the project of the other leads, but it's our project that we're designing together and that we're doing together. And so even though it might be stressful or tiring at times, I think it's worth it in the end. 

Zettersten: Yeah, I think keeping momentum right is, is that is the challenge when we're trying to be as inclusive as possible, trying to, you know, really come to consensus-based decisions. You know, that's a much slower research pace than I'm used to in my independent projects, the sort of smaller-scale projects that me and most other researchers would typically be accustomed to. So there's kind of a learning curve. And I think you need a lot of patience. And in case this is useful to maybe share, you know, Jessica and I are both postdocs. There is this tension that if I'm being honest, you know, I feel a lot of times working on these projects because they work at the slow pace, because it's a community project. You know, we're also at the same time trying to, you know, establish our footing in these early stages of our career. And that's a tricky balancing act, right, because you have to kind of invest a lot of time in these projects with a long arc. And how do you balance your time between these community projects that I think Jessica and I are a few really committed to with your sort of individual personal feelings about like, okay, you know, here's what I need to do to move on to the next career stage, to stay a researcher. Basically, there's a kind of tension there, especially because you sometimes also encounter, you know, skepticism or resistance around these kinds of projects. I think we've both been very fortunate to have mentors who've supported these projects really from the outset, and that's given us a lot of freedom and energy to invest time in these kinds of projects. But you know, there's still, I think, in general, some skepticism around projects like these in the field. And people have a hard time connecting it to you as a researcher. 

Fischer: Absolutely, because I also think this is something I wanted to come to, to give some general advice to people who are younger, who are starting careers. Is such a big project something you would recommend young researchers to do, or is it more a risk because of the reasons you just mentioned? So what do you think about that?.

Kosie: I mean, I think I've benefited so much from being involved in these projects. So, you know, Martin and I are involved right now at a level where we're leading a project. So it's a very kind of large involvement that we have in this ManyBabies project. But that's not the case for everyone, that it doesn't have to be the case for everyone, right? So we got involved in the data analysis for the first ManyBabies project, and so we weren't having to lead a large group. It was a much smaller role and I still learned a lot. So I learned a lot about statistical analysis. I learned a lot about writing our code. I learned a lot about considerations when collecting data from large groups of people from different labs. And so I would say even getting involved at that sort of level is great. And I think folks would learn a lot. And then from there you can decide if you'd like to take on larger and larger roles. 

Fischer: Here is a map of this big project which is still going on, of course, and probably not. I guess there's from time to time moments when you were overwhelmed by work and stressed by work. So one last thing in the end I would like to speak about this and yeah, let's jump out of the lab for a little bit. I read that you, Martin, you play Frisbee, you sing, you act. And Jessica, you're doing yoga dance classes in your free time. How important is it for you to be creative and another way to challenge your body in another way then just work. 

Zettersten: You did your research and that's so fun. No, I think it's incredibly important. I sort of think back to the very beginning of grad school. I think my initial misguided thought at that time was, okay, now I'm going to devote all my time to research, and I need to cut down on some of these other sort of pursuits that you mentioned, like music and theater and eventually Frisbee. But then what I found is that it doesn't help you be productive or stay balanced when doing this kind of work. So, you know, it seems incredibly important to me to make room in your life for the things that help you stay balanced. Even if you think of it just pragmatically, like, how can I be as productive as possible? I think for most people, I don't want to say all, but for most people that's probably the best way to stay productive and engaged and keep kind of the creative juices flowing. I think it gets very easy to get very bogged down if you sort of cut out and become too focused on one idea or project or question. 

And if you don't want to think about it pragmatically, I think it's just a path to a more meaningful life, if I can sort of say it that way. is to not feel like research needs to be the only or solely defining thing in your life and to have multiple avenues of creating meaning. Sorry that I'm switching into this life advice kind of mode, which is I can even I'm even qualified to give it. But that's sort of my philosophy and sort of what I would also tell grad students starting out as early career researchers, you know, make sure that you make room for other pursuits and meaningful things in your life. Those can be things like Frisbee in my case. But, you know, they don't necessarily have to be, quote unquote, activities like that, whatever that means for you. I think it's just important to keep space for that. 

Fischer: What does it mean for you, Jessica? 

Kosie: I was going to say, I've gone through periods where I think, oh, I need to be working harder. I need to cut out these other things in my life so I can work really hard on this research, or on this project. And I feel like that never has the effect that I want it to because I feel like I'm working really hard and I'm just not able to concentrate, not able to get things done. And when I take the time to take a yoga class or take a dance class or hang out at home with my cats. It kind of reinvigorates you. And then when you are working, even if you're working fewer hours, you're getting more done. And so I think it's really important to take the time to do those things, too. 

Fischer: And one last thing, I think, which is also motivating, is to win prizes. So a year ago you got the Early Career Award by the Einstein Foundation. What happened since then? Did that change your work somehow? Or your working motivation maybe? 

Kosie: I think the one thing that it did and that it really helped with is to think about how to take this project and really put it on a global level and be able to support different labs from around the world now that we have the funding to do so, to support funding data collection or equipment or trainings. And so I think that was always a goal of the project, but this just made it much a much more attainable goal that we now have the funding to do that and provide that support. And so we're very grateful. 

Zettersten: I think we both kind of think of it as kind of a ManyBabies award, more so than an award to this particular project or to Jessica or I. I think the thing that's motivating about it is it feels like it's also a sort of validation of all the work that the ManyBabies community has put into the project. And that's motivating, I think, to see that work recognized in addition to just the simple fact that it also gives us more resources to make the work as impactful as possible and really help build the community. 

Fischer: When is the project going to be finished? ManyBabies5 at least. What is your year timeframe? 

Kosie: That's an excellent question. 

Fischer: You're both smiling... 

Kosie: I think there are some variables that we have less control over. So right now, we're submitting a registered report, which I am not sure everyone knows what a registered report is, but basically we've written up the introduction to the paper and the methods and sort of our plans for data analysis, and we submit that and then the journal will review it and give us feedback. And once they've given us feedback and we've revised, we can then start to collect the data. So there is kind of a time there where we're waiting to get that go-ahead. Then we'll start data collection. I think we plan to collect data for about a year and then we'll need to do things like analyze the data and write the final version of the paper. So that is likely to be a year after that I would say. Certainly a few more years on this project before everything is finalized. Now, what do you think, Martin? 

Zettersten: Yeah, I think that's right. Two years is probably the quickest that I could imagine it happening, in three years is probably more realistic. 

Fischer: 2 to 3 years. So I wish you both have a long breath. Do say the same thing in English than we say in German. I don't know… And wish you all the best for this project and all the moments coming up with whomever in the world you're talking to and all the babies you're going to research on. And thank you so much for your time to Jessica Kosie and Martin Zettersten, both researchers from Princeton University, from the baby lab where they work as part of the worldwide ManyBabies project. This was AskDifferent, the podcast by the Einstein Foundation that introduces you to inspiring research personalities. You'll find all our podcast episodes on all the podcast platforms that exist, and I hope you enjoyed it. My name is Nancy Fischer. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks to you, too. To the U.S. 

AskDifferent. The podcast by the Einstein Foundation